Effective enrollment marketing requires mastering the art of conversation between school and parents. Chuck English pulls from decades of experience consulting for independent schools to help clarify the difference between marketing and communications and the impact they make on the enrollment process.
Effective enrollment marketing requires mastering the art of conversation between school and parents. Chuck English pulls from decades of experience consulting for independent schools to help clarify the difference between marketing and communications and the impact they make on the enrollment process.
Janice Crampton: Well, welcome everyone to this week's episode of We Admit. I'm joined today by someone that I have known for over 10 years.
Chuck English: No problem.
Janice Crampton: I might even say over 15 years. And in fact, I discovered Chuck or stumbled upon Chuck, Chuck English, again, the driving force behind English Marketing Works. While I was Googling and reading and immersing myself into all things parent retention. And so in the spirit of our conversation today, we're gonna talk about a wide variety of different things.
But Chuck English truly is one of those individuals that has partnered with dozens and dozens of independent schools, not only in the United States, but also in Canada and around the world. And his work, which again, I think you'll hear more about as we spend our time together today, has allowed schools and professionals to truly achieve their enrollment and other strategic goals, primarily through that lens of brand and marketing and messaging.
And so again, welcome Chuck English to We Admit.
Chuck English: Thank you so much. It's great to be here.
Janice Crampton: Yeah, and again, can you remember when we first met? Because I feel as though I could harken back to that day when it was like that thing called the internet, right? I mean, it was a while ago.
Chuck English:
It was, I will bet you it was closer to 10 years ago. And I was, I had just, really just started blogging about things related to independent schools. And I remember that I got a call from you. And if I remember correctly that...
Chuck English :
actually the first time we tried to connect was the year before that we actually did. And I can't remember what happened. And then I got a call from you and you said, how would you like to give a cornerstone presentation at our annual institute? And I don't, I knew what two or three of those words meant, but I had no idea what you were, what that really meant. And I,
Chuck English:
I said sure before I could think about it. And that was it. And I remember saying to you at some point, maybe even after the Institute that summer, saying what made you do that? You had never seen me, heard me, you'd written what I, you'd read rather what I'd written. But.
Chuck English:
And you just said, I just knew, I just knew I'd be okay. My board said, what are you doing? And you said, don't worry, it'll be okay. It'll be okay.
Janice Crampton:
Thanks.
Janice Crampton:
Well, and it has been a bit like that, right? Because I think, and you know this in your work, and I think again, knock on wood for those that again, are listening to this and not seeing it, but I'm knocking on, I'm knocking on wood. There are things about the work that we do where you just know. And I had read some of your blogs and some of your articles and we had the chance to talk. And I was less concerned about your PowerPoint ability.
Janice Crampton:
and more fixated on the message that you were sharing and the content that was in that message. And so again, it was the start of a wonderful friendship and a beautiful relationship. And again, I can't say it enough. There have been a number of times where I will underline, highlight, circle, star, words and phrases that you use, because again, it is quite powerful.
How the heck did you get started in this sort of world of school branding and marketing?
Chuck English:
about, it's almost 20 years ago. Well, I was doing marketing work mainly in the not-for-profit world, the fundraising world. And I had a very good friend who sat on the board of a large Jewish day school here in Toronto.
And he called me one day and he said, you know, the school's looking for a director of marketing and communications. And I said, that's very nice, but I'm not interested in a full-time job. And he said, do me a favor, just go meet with them, just go talk to them. And I said, but I'm not looking for a full-time job. And he said, Chuck, we're friends, do me a favor. So I did. And what ended up was that
We worked out this consulting arrangement where I directed their marketing communications activity based on X number of days. I can't even remember X number of hours a month. And that worked out okay. And it had to be kind of tweaked as time went on. But as I was doing this more and more, I started looking online. Online wasn't quite then what it is today, but I started looking online for just ideas. I mean, how do you market schools? And I discovered that there was this whole world of independent school marketing out there and started reading people and following people. And at some point I thought, well, maybe I have something to add to that this world of thought and kind of dipped my toe into blogging a little bit. I've been blogging about things related to Not for profit marketing and fundraising, but I started a little bit more Blogging about independent school marketing Started posting that stuff on LinkedIn in various places, which is where I think you saw it and you know, and that was that that's really you know, how it got started was just bythinking that there's got to be there's got to be something more out there there's got to be people out there doing this and i was right so
Janice Crampton
How do you keep things fresh in this work that you do? Because obviously there's kind of the foundational work that has to be done, but in a world where you can Google any school or you could put in words and phrases, how do you keep your work fresh and individualized? Because obviously every school is different and every place is different.
Chuck English
I keep it fresh by trying to read a whole bunch of different things, many of which are not school related. And one of the things that I've always tried to do is bring the best of the business world of marketing into the independent school arena. And so I read lots and lots of stuff about business marketing. uh, marketing and other, uh, and other industries and, you know, in other businesses, uh, and, uh, about marketing in general and about things, you know, totally unrelated, um, to, to any of that. Um, uh, you know, I, I'll listen to, you know, podcasts that have absolutely nothing to do with schools or marketing for that matter and often draw inspiration for those. Like I'll hear something and say, oh, you know, that's so interesting. You know, how can, and then my next thought is, how can I apply that to what I do? But, you know, so I'll give you an example. I was, one of the podcasts I listened to is Adam Grant's podcast. It's called Rethinking. I don't know. So, and you know, sometimes,
Chuck English
you know, sometimes when I'm on the treadmill or doing whatever I'm doing, it's great to listen to. And I kind of in and out, cause some, to be honest, you know, sometimes he gets a little, you know, geeky in terms of his, uh, psychological, uh, data kind of stuff, but he was interviewing these, uh, two women who had done these studies on, um, art and, um, I guess art and psychology. And they were talking about art and the brain and how art stimulates the brain and all these things. And then they started talking about what are different forms of art? That art isn't just always pictures on the wall and things like that. There are things that are art. And at one point they said something like, oh, wait, they were talking about podcasting as an art form. And one of the three of them, I can't remember who said, I never thought about that, but… you know, conversation really is an art form. If you listen to conversation, you can, you know, you can see it as a form of art. And I remember, and I thought, and I said, oh, isn't that interesting? I need to write that down somewhere and come back to that somehow, because there's a really super interesting thought and that can be applied in, I think, in the world of marketing and the world of schools.
Chuck English
you know, conversation is art. It means that the conversations that we have with people are really, you know, forms of art and how do we, you know, what does that mean in terms of how we think about them and can we design them and can we think about them and, you know, and in the same way that you do art and how much of it is inspiration and how much of it is perspiration and all, you know, all those kinds of things. Anyway, the point is that I, I draw inspiration from all kinds of places.
Janice Crampton
You know, it's interesting that you talk about these podcasts as the inspiration and perspiration for some of your thinking and this concept of conversation as art. I'll tell you, I was listening to a podcast yesterday, really enjoying it, and then found myself needing to, in fact, start dinner. And I said, okay, so let me now. turned to the podcast, but it had the ability to be viewed on YouTube, right? So I could see the person or the people that were talking. It was such a different experience. It was almost as though it tainted almost the simplification of, or let me try that again, Beth. It's almost as though by watching the people talking, I wasn't hearing what they were saying, as much as there was high impact when I just had that purity of just listening to them. So the conversation is art and kind of the interesting takeaway or the carryover to the work that we do in schools is how often do we really allow ourselves to just listen to what our parents or community are saying. And then also how much do you draw from then the visual of what they're doing? Because sometimes they're different, right?
Chuck English
And I guess, I mean, so what a really lovely concept, because if you think about it, the challenge is often to not be drawn, to not have your ideas about somebody skewed by the way they look, but rather by what they say. And how many times do we make an assumption about somebody based on the way, just on the way that they look, and does that ever prevent us from listening to what they have to say? And so I think your, you know, that kind of revelation about you know, seeing people as opposed to hearing people has really has a great application. It's a lovely thought.
Janice Crampton
When you think about the scene and the doing, again, your work is so based on relationships, not only with the schools that you're working with, but you spend a majority of your time talking about the importance of relationships between parents and students.
Are you drawing from your personal experience? Do you have, again, a background or experience in independent, private, parochial, day school kind of thing? Or again, is it more just you're taking kind of that business mindset and translating it into the independent school world?
Chuck English
Well, I have four daughters. All four of my daughters went to independent schools. So I can certainly draw from that experience and of having been a parent and what that's like. So that is for sure.
You know, I think that I, you know, that early experience that I talked about, you know, working as the, as this consulting director of marketing communications to me was actually really, really built some good experience because when you work inside a school, it's very different than, than being the consultant. And I worked with consultants at the time doing that.
And I guess what happens is that you develop a real respect for the people who are inside doing what needs to be done. And also I think a much more realistic kind of view of what's possible and what's not possible and what happens and what doesn't happen. And you can come up with the you know, the greatest plan in the world. But sometimes, you know, if everything else doesn't fall into place, you know, it's just gonna sit on a shelf. And I think that, I think I draw a lot from having, you know, been inside a school. I did it, you know, more or less for about 10 years. And you learn a lot from seeing, and just from seeing the way people interact with people, the way...
And I worked closely at that school with the head of school and seeing the way he, you know, he interacted with, you know, other members of the leadership team and other, I mean, you just, it, uh, so that that's a personal experience I draw from a lot.
Janice Crampton
Mm-hmm. You know, I think also too, the personal experience that you bring forward is powerful. But I also think as an observer of you and your work, and I've also seen you in action with various practitioners in various settings, I will compliment you as well as then lead into the next question. And that is, you have a wonderful style and affect that is very comforting and calm, approachable, accessible. Are you like this all the gosh darn time? I mean, you seem very steady. And do you just remain calm all the gosh darn time? Is this who you are? Is this your mantra? Do you meditate? What the heck? haha
Chuck English
No, no. If my wife or our kids were here, they would laugh at the question, I'm sure. You know, other people have said something similar. I mean, I don't know whether it's that once I'm, you know, working, I love what I do, but working or I'm in those kind of environments that I'm able to do that. And even, you know, when, as an example, I, you know, did a cornerstone presentation without ever having done one of those before in front of 200 or 300 people, somehow or other I didn't, I don't think anybody sort of got the impression that my heart was, you know, jumping out of my chest. But I don't know. I mean, I've been able to.I've been able to do that, but personally, I would say that I'm much more excitable personally than I am professionally.
Janice Crampton
Yeah. You know, again, I'm doing what I know I shouldn't do. And that is I'm thinking marketing communications, writing, you know, branding. Are you are you someone who would ever author a book beyond the sort of the top 10 retention tips? I mean, do you see yourself as that wordsmith author? Creative juices flowing.
Chuck English
Well, I mean, the truth is I have written a book, but had nothing to do with independent schools
Janice Crampton
Oh, well, this is an awkward moment. Ha ha ha. We have a deep research team here at ASEP, Chuck. It's literally no stone is unturned. Uh-oh, uh-oh.
Chuck English
Of course. I co-authored a book called The Philanthropic Mind. And it's interesting because I started it with my co-author at a point where I was doing more work in the not-for-profit world and the fundraising world, which is where the idea came from. And even though, as it turns out, each of us had our career focus shift.
Chuck English
Decided that we wanted to finish the book. So it was based on interviews with 50 of Canada's top philanthropists and You know, we talked to them about Everything, you know from their motivations to their pet peeves to their What they you know what they what their dreams and expectations are from the next generation and and managed to publish this book. In the philanthropic world, it was well received. And actually, I just saw something, a LinkedIn post a couple of months ago that talked about how the book was being used as the text for a course in philanthropy somewhere here in Canada. So, yeah. So, back to your question.
Janice Crampton
Well, that's exciting. Right?
Chuck English
Um, uh, yeah, uh, I, I think so, although the, the biggest problem that I have when it comes to writing is that, um, I, I always want to try and write something that is a new idea, something different. And um,
and even though consultants that I've worked with, business coaches that I've worked with have said, no, you just need to write about those topics related to the services that you provide. Just bread and butter, Chuck, just bread and butter, right? And whenever I sit down to write, I find it much harder to do that than think about, oh, this is a neat idea. So I have this whole...
Chuck English
I have this whole file of a bunch of neat ideas. And the problem with them is that they take work and they take time. And so it's not so easy to turn out stuff. So I'm working on, I'm just finishing one now that I'm really happy with because it's this interesting kind of concept that I hope people will find interesting and be useful. So I would...
I would love one day, I think, to write a book about some aspect of independent school
Janice Crampton
Well, and again, that fiction, nonfiction, when I talked about, and I'm not trying to cover up for the fact that I didn't know that you had co-authored a book on philanthropy, but again, you have a high level of creativity and sensitivity and insight. And so, not that I'm asking if you're gonna write the next Danielle Steele, but it was just, there's sort of creativity that's part of your work that I was curious about.
You know, it's interesting you're talking about the philanthropy aspect. I just, um, this past week, uh, returned from Austin, Texas, where I presented with or at the case NACE meeting. And, um, you know, no, this is not about me, but it's more about this relationship between philanthropy and enrollment. And that concept around institutional advancement, which again is a title for some, but really is a mindset for schools.
And the thing that one individual in the audience said that is not a surprise to me, and we certainly know this to be true because that's why Case and AISAP got together, is that those in the marketing communication department in Arena, as this person said, it can either be the catalyst between the two offices or the therapist between the two offices. And
I just would be curious to hear from you. Are you finding that more and more schools are seeing that they are stronger together with these two offices or do you still see schools keeping them very, very separate?
Chuck English
I don't think that I see schools intentionally keeping them very separate. But I also, on the other hand, don't see a lot of schools that are using a really integrated management model when it comes to those things. And I'm still seeing… schools where marketing people are trying to serve two masters, uh, which is really, you know, really, really difficult and where, where the, the fundraising people and the, and the enrollment people, uh, aren't on the same page. And, and, um, you know, you have crazy things. I've, I've seen like just nutty things where the, and some of this is just because it, the way things have developed over time, but for example, where the fundraising people are doing the social media posts for the school, because somehow, somewhere along the way, that's what they inherited as a department. And then the marketing people are doing something else, and the enrollment people are doing something else. I mean, it's, It's not, it's really not so easy. I don't, and then there's, you know, I, what I was going to say is I don't see many schools that are obviously using the advancement model, um, that well. Um, there are schools where I think, and a lot of this obviously depends on, on the head of school and how, uh, how. Uh, I, how.
I think forward thinking that head of school is in terms of some of this. So, you know, beyond the nomenclature, if you had a head of school that was meeting on a regular basis with enrollment, marketing, and fundraising all in the room, all at the same time, and that was a regular, fixed, ongoing meeting, so that is essentially the advancement model, right? Now you don't need to call it the advancement model. I mean, I don't think that makes much difference. So, but I don't, you know, and I speak to, obviously speak to lots of people and, you know, I convene these, I think I've talked to you about this, you know, I convene these peer mastermind groups where I… you know, put together, you know, people who are just working in schools across the country to have an hour and a half conversation about a particular topic. And through there, through those, you know, I've really spoken to people from, you know, schools of all sizes and all ilks and, you know, it's really based on that, that I can say that I don't know many schools that are unfortunately really using the advancement model. I think, and by the way, then there's also the school. In talking about that, we kind of exclude probably half the schools on the continent that aren't big enough to use an advancement model where you still have the person responsible for admissions.
Who's doing marketing or the person responsible for fundraising who's doing marketing or, you know, between them they share, you know, somebody providing some administrative support who does all the marketing stuff. And, you know, I see lots of, I see lots of schools like that. So, I, anyway, it's a bit of a mixed bag.
Janice Crampton
Well, and I think what you're also saying here is something that I think about a lot, and that's the use of the words and phrases as it relates to who's doing the do, and the use of the words and phrases as it then relates to a philosophy or a mindset. And again, I think that, and I'd love your thoughts on this, but I think in many ways you just responded with it, is this notion of worry of course about who's doing the do because that's task orientation. However, don't have the that's my job or that's my turf or that's my silo, right? Get in the way of doing what you got to do in order to just all be rowing in the same direction because your audience gets confused. That's really right. I...
Chuck English
Of course. I mean, you know, I often talk to schools about the fact that, you know, the donors that the fundraising people are talking to are the parents or sometimes the parents or the grandparents of prospective students.And so if there's one message that's coming out of the fundraising department and another message coming out of the admissions or enrollment department, then, you know, then people just don't know what to think or what to believe. And it's amazing to me how often people don't get that. They just don't see that you're talking to, you are all talking to the same people. And if you're not, if the message isn't
Janice Crampton
They just don't get that.
Chuck English
the same, then you're just creating confusion. And I think that we live in a time where confusion just leads to disinterest. And if you can't, it's like when you're online. If you're online and you go to a website and you can't figure out in 12 seconds what it is that this is all about, it's all over, right?
Chuck English:
So, you know, if your school is sending out mixed messages and your donors and or your prospective parents or grandparents can't figure out what the school is all about because they're getting different messages about it, they're just gonna tune it out. They're just gonna say, you know, oh well.
Janice Crampton:
Mm-hmm. Well, or they're gonna go right to your tuition page. They're gonna do that anyway, that's for sure. Yeah.
Chuck English:
Well, they're gonna do that anyway. I mean that that's actually by the way, I mean I Would I think that that's a good sign if people go to your tuition page at least they want to know what it costs
Janice Crampton:
Tell me more. I had a school, here's one. I had a school recently. I was doing a presentation for some Montessori schools. And where I'm going with this is the question was, we've been advised to put a wall or a gateway up to tuition so that you have to inquire, right? Look, again, people can't see because this is an audio podcast, but your face is saying the same thing that my reaction was. I'm like, wait, hold it.
So even if your tuition was like $5, right? Totally accessible. The fact you said you can't know what tuition is until you give me your name, makes everyone say it's gonna be ridiculously expensive. I can't do it. Like I didn't, right? So talk about tuition, have it be your landing page for heaven's sakes. Maybe not that, but who knows, right? That'll stir up the market.
Chuck English:
Right, and yeah. The digital marketers will tell you that the two most visited pages on a school's website are the home page and the tuition page.
Janice Crampton:
That's right. And isn't there something to be said for then also your digital marketers sharing with you around like how many seconds they spend or what's the next page they go to? So if they go to your homepage and they go to the tuition page and then they leave, that's a story. Or they go to your homepage, your tuition page, and then like the inquiry page or the academic page, there's another. So again, the art and the science of this. I'm... Yeah, absolutely.
Chuck English:
Sure, sure, yeah, for sure. What were you, can I go back? What were you presenting on at CASE-NAIS? What was your presentation about?
Janice Crampton:
Well, I was joined by the wonderful Scott Bohan, who is the Chief Advancement Officer at St. Paul's School in Concord, Massachusetts. And he and I talked about enrollment and philanthropy and opportunities for greater collaboration and partnership towards an institution's overall goal. Now, mind you, that was not the title of it, but that was the sentiment behind it. And it was not only well received, well attended, but again, it just stirred for many of us, just a number of different questions moving forward. So, you know, again, I think that more and more schools are looking to org charts to try to figure out how to be leaner, meaner, fighting machines, and to, you know, again, be more efficient, and yet, oh gosh, going back to your conversation as an art.
If you stifle or you're not listening to all these conversations and listening to all these whispers, you can be the most efficient machine and you're just not, you know, you're not going to be as successful. So anyway, it's sort of interesting to see. You know, Chuck, you have joined us for a number of years now in our enrollment marketing summit that's coming up in the next few weeks. And last year...
Chuck English:
Yep, yeah, for sure.
Janice Crampton:
I believe it was last year. Again, the year has become a blur. But last year, you and I spent some time talking about marketing and communication and the difference between. Do you still see that as a point of confusion for people and for schools? Do you think people understand the nuances between marketing and communication?
Chuck English:
Um, it's interesting.
Janice Crampton:
And does it matter? Maybe the other part is, and does it matter if we use them interchangeably or we say that they are different?
Chuck English:
Well, I think it does matter because I think that communication is more about messaging and what we say, what we have to say. And marketing is more about finding the ways in which to say that or finding the places in which to say that.
Chuck English:
Um, uh, so I, you know, I think from that point of view, I, I would say yes, although it's not expressed in that kind of way. Uh, I, I think. I w what, what I hear a lot of these days is people talking about messaging. Um, and, and being challenged by, by the message. What's the, what's our message? Uh, and.
And to a certain degree that, well not to a certain degree, that is a matter of communication. I think the other thing that, I guess the other thing that I, whoops, the other thing that I would kind of point to is that I think people think about communication as being only internal and marketing being external. I think that's the way some people kind of look at that. And that's not the way I see it in any case, but so.
Chuck English:
It's... I don't know. You know, I think...
I think there's a lot around that, particularly in terms of messaging. It's a real challenge, I think, for schools these days. I think, and is made more difficult by just the number of channels over which you have to communicate. So.
Janice Crampton:
Do you have to communicate in all channels? Do you think that gone are the days where you can pick and choose?
Chuck English:
Yeah, I think you do. I think you have to be online, and you have to be using social media, and you have to be using multiple social media platforms, and you have to be thinking about...
Chuck English:
you know, channels that people don't often think about as channels, but you have to be thinking about, you know, what gets said at recruitment events at open houses and you have to be thinking about your tour scripts and you have to be thinking about, you know, all the ways in which your message as a school is being conveyed. Uh, and, and it's, it is, uh, it can be overwhelming.
And each of those needs to be slightly different, even though they all need to be driven by a kind of common toolbox, if you will. And I really do think it's overwhelming for people. I think that it's really very, very difficult.
Janice Crampton:
And I think, again, what's interesting about what you're sharing here is that this also brings it back to the philosophical and the implementation part of it. And if you in fact have an individual that's hired to be whatever the title might be, it has marketing communication in it and you're doing institution wide, but you're also doing offices. You know, again, it's that push-pull and who's going to do it. And the next thing you know, you've got the cafeteria director. you know, posting on Facebook because that's, I mean, again, I'm trying to be dramatic for the sake of it, but you know, there's nothing wrong with that person being the implementer of, but you know, Lord have mercy, you gotta manage it.
Chuck English:
Right, and so what I often talk about is what you end up with is in schools, which can be obviously crazy places, is you have the second grade teacher coming into your director of marketing communications office and saying, where do I get a logo to put on the t-shirts that I'm making? And that's… And it happens. And every time I say that, the marketing communications person just nods their head and says, yep, been there. I think that happens a ton. And then the other thing, like you described, happens as well. I mean, I was just doing some work with a school, that small school, not that well resourced.
where every department said, well, why can't we have our own Instagram account? You know, why can't the science department have its Instagram account? Why can't the art department have its own Instagram? Why can't the elementary department have its own Instagram account? And that's another thing that ends up happening in schools. So you're 100% right. I mean, not just philosophy, but the theory, the theory of...
Janice Crampton
That's right, the theory. Thank you. Yeah.
Chuck English
and should be organized, you know, often falls apart or doesn't quite make it through the implementation stage.
Janice Crampton:
I think that's why I was asking the question around, you know, there's so many channels and there's so many things, you know, is it best to be all over the place but really not well or is it best to just focus on, you know, one, two, three and do it well? And maybe your answer is, I'm answering before you answer, but let me guess, maybe it is you have to do them all and you have to do it well. So drop the mic and right. Right? Right.
Chuck English:
Yeah, but that's not real. I mean, that's not realistic. I mean, that would be that's a, you know, to say something like that, for example, to, you know, to a school where the, you know, common. I'm sure you've seen this million times. You have a common arrangement. You know, the person responsible for admissions, you know, is also responsible for marketing. And he or she has a part time.
Chuck English:
administrative kind of coordinator working for them that does some of that. I mean, it's not, that's not going to be meaningful. So in answer to your question, you know, push comes to shove. Yes, you know, do one thing and do it well.
do two things and do them really, really well. Not only, I would say for two reasons, by the way, not only because it makes sense in terms of time and resources, which is a big reason, but the other reason is that if you start by doing one thing, one channel really, really well, it's really strategic, you're putting a lot of thought into it, then when you do have the time to add to that. you'll have a really strong basis upon which to do that. And so I think it makes sense from that point of view too.
Janice Crampton:
Chuck English, simple abundance, love spending time with you. Love, love, love. And, you know, again, whether it is at a cornerstone, now you know what a cornerstone is, right? Now you know what an institute is after all these years. But anyway, we're looking forward to having you as one of our key faculty members at our upcoming enrollment marketing summit.
And for those of you who are interested in learning more about that enrollment marketing summit and to attend and participate, we encourage you to go to asap.org and get yourself registered because again, Chuck is in and amongst several individuals who do this work on the daily. But I gotta tell you, you're a special one. You're a special one. So thank you so much, Chuck, for your time today.
Chuck English:
Thank you, Janice Crampton. It's always a pleasure to speak with you, truly.